A Conversation Between FGT and NG
June 7, 2010
NG: Hey Felix, I’m working on this new piece and I was wondering if you could give me your two cents on it. I think it deals with a lot of the issues that you deal with in your work and I’d really like to hear what you have to say about.
FGT: Yes of course. What is it?
NG: Well its going to be a public installation. I’m going to be setting up a chess board in between two stalls in a public bathroom. The board is going to be painted on to the tiles, and it will have all the pieces made out of something cheap and simple like wood or plastic. Its kind of about privacy and art invading every day life.
FGT: Hmm. That’s interesting. People spend so much time in bathrooms, I guess its about time somebody used that space for something useful.
NG: Yeah, not to mention that it forces somebody to sit back and really contemplate the art work. They have no choice in the manner. I mean, they are going to be sitting there for a while anyways. They would have to try really hard to ignore the elephant in the room. Even in an art gallery they probably wouldn’t spend as much time looking at a piece. But here, they are literally trapped in a room with it.
FGT: It would certainly catch them by surprise. Especially out of an art context. How will your audience read this differently if its in a bathroom at the MOCA than if its at a bathroom at your school or at the mall? These are all things you have to think about.
NG: Oh, I have. I guess what it comes down to is I want to bring art to those that may not have the opportunity to go to museums or have an art education. Not everybody is going to be interested in art enough to actively look into it. But that doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t enjoy art if they do happen to be exposed to it. If I can get at least one person to develop an interest in art through my work, then I’ll be happy. After all, this is just a personal project. No art critic will see this work, unless they happen to walk into the right bathroom.
FGT: But what if the people that do walk in to the bathroom don’t read this chess board on the floor as a work of art?
NG: Well, that has been my main problem. And that’s really why I came to you. This aspect of the piece reminds me a lot of your billboards and how they kind of just exist out there in the world for people to encounter. Some people get it, some people don’t. Some people probably don’t even notice them. I think the majority of people probably start thinking about what they mean and who put them up, even if the word “art” never crosses their mind.
FGT: Yes, that’s always the problem. I’ve been doing this for a while now, and I still don’t think I’ve come up with a definitive answer or solution, and I don’t think I ever will. In fact I hope I never do. Being certain about things would be pretty boring I imagine. I guess the bottom line is some people get it and some don’t, but hopefully everybody takes something from it. There will be those that say “Oh, this is an FGT piece” and then make whatever connection, analysis, and conclusion with what they already know from me. Then there will be the people that will just say “What the hell is this?” and just walk away. Maybe in a week they’ll make the connection, maybe they never will, but what really matters is that they were exposed to it and in one way or another it has had some sort of effect on them. The goal in the end is to create something significant that gets people thinking. Sometimes it might require a mediator. So the average Joe might come across one of my billboards and not think twice about it until they read about it the next day in the newspaper and learn what it was all about (at least according to the writer of whatever newspaper they happen to be reading). And then the real magical thing happens where they go, “Hey I saw that. I was there. I was a part of this.” And that’s what it really is all about. These billboards are out in public because they are for the public. And its not just the public that would not normally go to an art gallery, it is for art lovers as well. An art educated person might have their own take on, but then they will go on to read what the art critics have to say, or even what Average Joe has to say. There is so much that we can all learn from each other, and not one of these people has a more valid opinion than the others. Not even me.
NG: That’s a good point. Yes its always good to have communication. Somebody might be staring at your billboard and have no clue what any of those dates or phrases mean, but then maybe anther person will walk up next to them and they start chatting about it and they put their knowledge together and hopefully get little further on it. So then maybe somebody walks into a bathroom and they find a chess board on the floor and they think it’s the weirdest thing ever. It really stays on their mind, then they go and mention it to their friends who just so happens to know a thing or two about art and they get an interesting conversation going. There’s also personal satisfaction I suppose, both from the audience “figuring it out” and from me when I see that people really get a kick out of it. Artists make things because they feel compelled to, and it’s done for themselves not for the viewer. Or maybe for a specific person, like you always talked about making things for Ross and how Ross was your audience. I’ve always taken that as you just being facetious, but I guess the point is that everybody can take something from a good work of art, even if it is not what the artist intended. Your work may have one meaning to you and Ross, but that doesn’t exclude the rest of the world from finding some significance for themselves in the art.
FGT: The thing about “The Public” is that it’s a myth. It doesn’t exist. There is no one public. There are many publics. Every person on this planet belongs to countless publics, but it is insane to say something is for “the public” and imply that it includes absolutely everybody. You can try to reach everybody, but its probably not going to happen. So what you do is you create art that is accessible to everybody, given that they at least have the opportunity to view or experience the art. Circumstance can’t be helped. So like I said, it’s futile to try and get to everybody, so it is easier to make your audience or public a single person. In my case its Ross. But who is Ross? Well, Ross is everybody. So how would all this relate to your chess board here?
NG: Well hopefully it will create some buzz and get people talking. As far as the whole public thing goes, my art really is for them. Call me idealistic or naïve, but I want my art to make people smile. So in that sense, this isn’t just a public art piece because it is out in public. It is a public art piece because it is for the public. Its for them to use and enjoy, and hopefully they will learn something about art. Even if they don’t realize it.
FGT: I couldn’t agree more. Art really is about giving back. Art has the power to unite people. Maybe even two people that happened to go potty at the same time. Do you think people will actually interact with it? How important is it to you that they do, and what does it mean if they don’t?
NG: Yeah I think people will interact with it. It probably would really depend on the bathroom and how clean it is. For example, people would be more likely to touch a chess piece on the floor of a bathroom in the Getty than at some filthy gas station shit hole. Realistically an actual game of chess would probably never happen. The chances of two people being in adjacent stalls at the same time is pretty slim. And even then, could you imagine the conversation between anonymous strangers trying to get a game going? I suppose maybe two friends could go in and play. Or if a stall has “regulars” they could play over an extended period of time. I think just as long as some of the people that go in there move a piece around, I would consider the work successful. You know which of your works this reminds me of though, right? Your candy spills.
FGT: Ah, yes I see. Well those were under a completely different context. They were in a much more sterile environment so people would be less reluctant to pick them up off the floor. They were also wrapped, so people shouldn’t hesitate to eat them. But even if they didn’t eat them, they would still take one, or even more. They would also be more likely to do it because they are in an art gallery and they know what they are viewing is a work of art. Any person that goes to an art gallery will want to get the most out of their visit, and do would be more willing to interact with the work when appropriate. Plus the docents and guards will always be there to encourage the audience to be a part of the piece.
NG: I know you have spoken before about the importance of the interaction between the audience and the art work. That action of the person picking up a piece of candy from the pile is in a sense the art itself. The art work is not fully completed until that happens. I guess its kind of like when people say, “If a tree falls in a forest, but nobody is around to hear it, does it still make a noise?” I think your candy spills are complete art works before they are interacted with, but they completely transform into a separate art work when people start taking candy. And I don’t just mean that physically. Before, you already have something that is complete and has meaning and form, and even a concept. It is simple a portrait of a man, and that alone has enough substance to stand on its own. However, that is not the piece you set out to create. You wanted more. So when the audience begins to play their part, we get something completely new. So yeah, I agree that the piece is not complete until the interaction, but we still shouldn’t discredit the perfectly fine work that existed before. It’s like one is being destroyed so the other one can be created.
FGT: Yeah and you know, that’s kind of the problem I’m seeing with what you’re doing here. Your piece really needs the people to actually play with it in order to work. Otherwise it really falls flat and all you have is a toy on the floor.
NG: I’m not sure if that can even be called art. It’s just a thing, sitting at a place. I mean, when Duchamp did it, he put his “art” in an artistic context.
FGT: Yeah, but what is an artistic context anyways? Art is everywhere these days. The streets and alleyways covered in graffiti are the new art galleries. Your piece certainly isn’t the first artwork to be placed in a bathroom.
NG: True. But I don’t know if I dig the whole “It’s art because I say its art” thing. I would feel like such a hack if I did that.
FGT: Are my works just candy then? Or my billboards just billboards?
NG: Well no because they are actually dong something, or saying something. They are transformed. Symbolically they are more than what they are physically. Who’s to say what art really is anyway. Who’s the authority on this?
FGT: We should really set up some kind of Artist Council to decide on all of this.
NG: Seriously. This art business is complicated stuff.
FGT: What if somebody decides to take some chess pieces home? Or what If the custodians clean it up? I imagine you’re just doing this guerilla style.
NG: I won’t have permission, and in that sense I suppose its different from your work which is usually commissioned, but I don’t see that as all that significant. However, I do like to use water color paint that can easily come off. I’m an artist, not a vandal. And as far as people removing the board, whatever happens, happens. I guess in some ways its like a performance, and it only lasts as long as it all stays there.
FGT: Well if somebody decides to take a single piece, I would assume they liked the art and would take it as a compliment. It could be part of the work even.
NG: Well that works with your Stack pieces, but I don’t think it works here. However, I really like the idea of people literally taking something from the art. If they physically take something, then perhaps they do so figuratively as well. Its nice to have something as a souvenir. It will leave a more lasting impression on people. That’s something that I learned in one of my art education classes. It’s especially true for children. The way you did it was genius, especially with the candy. I like the playfulness of the candy, but I like how the sheets in the stacks are more permanent. A candy is put in your mouth and before you know it, its gone forever. Sure, some people might decide to keep their candy, and if the ants don’t get to them it might last them a while. But nobody is going to eat a sheet of paper. Most people will take them home and some might even put it on their wall. But what’s also interesting is those people that take one and then it becomes a nuance and they abandon it. Then you have this piece of paper which has the potential to be so significant and meaningful yet at the same time it’s the most mundane thing in the world, and it certainly means a lot to the artist, but now it is just annoying to the person holding it and it becomes litter. Its quite tragic actually. But I’m sure it doesn’t bother you. I mean, if you didn’t plan it that way then I’m sure you at least appreciate this surprise and accept it for what it is. And the other great thing about the stacks is that it makes it so that the audience becomes the owner of the art work. I guess its almost a slap in the face to the museums. Its like you’re telling them that they can buy one of your works, but they’ll never truly own it, which I guess goes back to art being for the public.
FGT: That’s very true. All your intentions go out the window when you put your art out there for people to look at. People are going to interpret it however they will and the artist won’t always be there to explain it or to walk people through it. But it’s like you said, there is also the personal satisfaction part of it and it’s important that I get my share out of it too. With any work you create you need to learn from it and then take your art to the next level.
NG: If you don’t learn something, then you just wasted your time.
FGT: Yes, but I think there is much to be learned from every little thing. You just have to look carefully and keep an open mind.
NG: That’s a very idealistic view. But I think that attitude helps keep me going.
FGT: With what you got going on, this whole idea of the public bathroom is pretty odd. I mean, a bathroom is one of the most private things there is. Yet here we have a public bathroom. It’s almost like an oxymoron or something. People walk into their little stall and they’re suppose to just do their business and get out, and it doesn’t involve any other people. But here they are being asked to interact with another person in this space. It really blurs the line between the private and public.
NG: You know, people always talk about the public vs. private debate in respects to your work and they always bring up the same things. It’s always about the candy spills, the billboards, and the stacks in their many incarnations.
FGT: Yeah I can’t seem to be able to get away from that.
NG: But I think the best example of private vs. public in your work is in your puzzle pieces. You took something that was extremely personal and very specific to you and your life, and you made it accessible to everybody. It doesn’t matter if the viewer has no idea who Ross was, or who those cats belonged, or that you loved cats so much or anything. None of that matters becomes what comes across in those photographs is universal and anybody can understand the emotions that those pictures evoke. But it goes beyond just understanding. I can look at one of those pictures and I can relate to it. It almost feels as if I know those people or like I took the picture, or like the picture is a part of my life. But it’s not. It belongs to somebody else. It’s like you’re giving away your memories, or at the very least you are putting them out there for the whole world to see. And this all goes back to the public vs. private thing.
FGT: Yeah I can’t seem to be able to get away from that either.
NG: Well it certainly is a subject worth investigating. I just really like the idea of taking something as everyday as a snapshot and using it in your artwork. It’s very DIY and kitschy, yet at the same time very profound.
FGT: Well the thing about memories is that they tend to hold us back. Remembering old memories is not as interesting as creating new ones, and that’s what art should really strive towards, even if you’re using old memories to create new ones. Those puzzles were about encapsulating parts of life and then moving on. But anyway, I think you’re on to something good here. I would say push it as far as you can, then take a moment to look at it. The moment it becomes complete, it becomes a memory. After that you go on to create something else. I hope you get what you want out of it.
NG: Thanks.